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#26 2004-11-20 13:27:54

WolfVanZandt
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From: Broomfield, Colorado
Registered: 2004-09-01
Posts: 4711
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Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

I also recognize the potential of mainstream humanity. Unfortunately, Speedbump, what you're seeing isn't devolution but domestication and the only potential of domesticated beings is menial service and food; beyond that is simple feral destructiveness. That's why I look to homids that retain some measure of wildness and fringe elements in human society to save us. Humanity seems to have a sort of moral anomia. Anomia is the "tip of the tongue" phenomenon where you know a word but you just can't quite bring it out. A lot of writers and thinkers seem to "just almost" have a grasp of what's going wrong in human society but they don't quite carry it to a solution phase. Humanity simply needs to recognize what they've done to themselves before their masters (technology) either crashes on them or "decides" to completely consume them like they are trying to do with all of their resources.

The modern myth of the Werewolf has it inheriting the worst from both man and wolf. The only reason that it would not retain the best is that mosern movie goers /want/ to see the worst. I understand that horror and gore can be fun - actually, I think that one of the "funnest" werewolf movies that has been mae was American Werewolf in Paris. It was a rollercoaster from beginning to end. But a ore realistic view of Werewolves can retain the fun. For instance, there is a bad Werewolf in Howling Mad ptted against a good Werewolf (I'm not sure I like the idea that the bad Werewolf is a human turned Werewolf and the good Werewolf is a wolf turned Werewolf - I'm not sure that mister David had that message in mind while writing the book), But the bad Werewolf wreaks quite a lot of murder and mayhem while trying to get to his unintentional (and rebelious) charge. Despite the gore and horror, the story is funny, adventurous, and fast paced. What more could you ask for in a movie.

I think one reaso that "Werewolves have gotten the shaft" is that they are conceived as such one  sided creatures, they don't really offer authors much to work with. If you give them personalities (instead of RARR! EAT! KILL! DESTROY!) then you emmediately increase their story potential many times. Otherwise, what do you have? Somebody turns into a monster, they kill a lot of people, people get tired of getting killed and they kill the monster. With that formula, the only draw really is the violence and gore.

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#27 2004-11-20 14:57:36

The Busboy
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From: USA
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Posts: 18041

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

I see all of your points and I respect all of your thoughts.  I think I personally see werewolves in so many different levels, so I really can relate to everything all of you have said (and more stuff that you haven't said).  I think this is a cool forum in the fact that it says SO much about werewolves in just a couple posts.  If anyone famous or upcoming famous ever wanted to do something artistic and werewolf related as far as a book, movie or other kind of art, this is the forum they should read before that start it.  I think it is really cool that people here are trying to be respectful of each other too, as this is obviously a VERY personal topic for everybody here.  I think that anyone in this forum that has any kind of an artistic ability should try to put their feelings into their art to reflect that, as that is in my opinion, the best art.  I am looking forward to seeing more of S2M's art, Chris' art, S2M's writing, Speedy's website, Chris' website, and still would like to see WVZ write a nonfiction book.

Last edited by The Busboy (2004-11-20 14:59:58)

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#28 2004-11-20 15:55:39

Speedbump
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From: Louisiana
Registered: 2004-09-21
Posts: 1140

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

I'm just glad we're discussing all sorts of opposing viewpoints in a civil manner. Most other website forums I've visited can't even handle a simple debate without tearing each others' throats out.

Oh, but i do loves me some irony. Werewolves, acting civilized?

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#29 2004-11-20 15:59:18

The Busboy
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Posts: 18041

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

Speedy, I know what you mean, I like the level of respect the people who post here have for each other, also people seem to have a common bond and seem to recognize that.  I gotta say I learned a lot from this site.

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#30 2004-11-20 20:46:56

WolfVanZandt
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From: Broomfield, Colorado
Registered: 2004-09-01
Posts: 4711
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Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

Heh. If I could ever just find the time to just sit down and type.... One drawback for WebTV is that you can't use it as a word processor.

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#31 2004-11-20 23:44:13

Joey Liverwurst
Member
Registered: 2004-10-22
Posts: 128

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

Chris Prunckle wrote:

Aside from all this, when I see a werewolf I don't want to see a sniveling coward that is crying cause the rest of his pack picks on him.

Suit yourself, but one of the most satisfying werewolf stories that I have read was about an omega werewolf who still killed people left and right but had an inferiority complex because he received no respect from his pack.

Hello again to everybody, by the way.

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#32 2004-11-30 03:55:20

BlueEyesWolf
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From: California
Registered: 2004-11-22
Posts: 45024

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

Well, I get so tired of werewolves being shown as evil creatures in the movies, TV and the comics for a long time. You really think that ALL werewolves are bad? I don't think so. So that's why I like Bubba the Redneck Werewolf, Scary Godmother's Harry, Boneyard's Ralph and Highway 13's Garth. They are all good and they don't want to be turned back to a human again because they like their werewolf form better.

I think it's time to put more good-natured werewolves on films and TV as well as in the comics!

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#33 2004-12-01 00:43:41

WolfVanZandt
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From: Broomfield, Colorado
Registered: 2004-09-01
Posts: 4711
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Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

Joey, that was Watcher, wasn't it? That was good. But I really liked the play between the "good" Werewolf and the "bad" Werewolf. Also, the setting is close to where we have most of our howls so I can wander around and say, "That was in the story and that was in the story...."

Hey, I could really associate with Ralph and Garth. I'd have to kill Harry, I think (he wouldn't stay away from my food) and Bubba would probably kill me (I wouldn't stay away from his food).

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#34 2004-12-01 13:19:53

Chris Prunckle
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From: Chicago
Registered: 2004-11-15
Posts: 172
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Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

Joey:
I am fine if it is the human side sniveling over what the werewolf side is doing, I just have a hard time with the werewolf side having a hissy fit. 

I think I have come up with a solid idea that will appease all of us.  A werewolf movie that pits good versus evil.  Maybe set up characters that are similar, but opposite.  They both suffer from the same curse, but one relishes in the animalistic brutality that he can cause, while the other fights to keep his urges under wraps.  Their contradicting views towards their nature could pit a final battle that climaxes in a werewolf battle to end all.  Basically the movie could be created out of the discussions in this forum.  The movie could pit the two opposing views against on another.  I will admit though that in a movie like this, my view must lose.

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#35 2004-12-01 15:50:01

Speedbump
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From: Louisiana
Registered: 2004-09-21
Posts: 1140

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

I'd rather your side win. "Good guy" endings are way too cliche' in Hollywood, and tragedies almost always engrave themselves deeper into a viewer's memory.

But the "good guy" needs to have a giant catharsis about why he's losing as he loses or else the tragic effect will be completely defused. He/she needs to realize that he/she could have still been "the good guy" even if he/she had fully embraced both sides of his/her being. Then the moral of the movie could be not about which werewolf was good or evil and won, but which came to terms with its own being and overcame its inner turmoil.

One side views lycanthropy as a gift, the other side a curse. The gift mentality leads to forward progress and character growth, while the curse mentality is a downward spiral to self destruction. The bad guy knew his abilities all along, and the good guy denied what he was all the way up to the very end when it was too late to do anything about it.

That's why the bad guy should win.

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#36 2004-12-01 17:10:43

The Busboy
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From: USA
Registered: 2004-06-08
Posts: 18041

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

Speedbump and Chris, can you imagine if we got a bunch of site members together to write a book, how friggin' awesome it would be!

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#37 2004-12-01 17:36:55

Chris Prunckle
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From: Chicago
Registered: 2004-11-15
Posts: 172
Website

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

Speed:

I like your way of doing.  It would definitely be a movie/comic/book or whatever else that would peak interest.  The other great thing about it, is that it doesn't seem forced or fake.  It seems like something that could be possible based on the idea that werewolves exist.  I also like the fact that we are not losing the human element to werewolves.

Bus:

The reason this works is that we have a conglomerate of ideas and are focusing them towards a problem we see.  Now all we would need is a solid articulate writer to combine these ideas and fine tune them, while giving us all a shout out.  Maybe we can get an Anne Rice to put together a strong werewolf book.  For dealing with emotional turmoil I think there is none better.  A great director (though this will never happen) to take care of the brutality, Peter Jackson.  His over-the-top violence in his earlier movies is superb.  He has also shown a keen eye for CGI and how to make it truly work.

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#38 2004-12-01 17:54:34

The Busboy
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From: USA
Registered: 2004-06-08
Posts: 18041

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

Chris, all I can tell you is that I do know for a fact that a lot of very famous people know about this site, I don't know if they read the forums or not though, the people who post here are very creative, the people who have things posted at full moon phases are very creative, I think the postings and questions in the forums are great, so who knows, maybe someone, somewhere, sometime might get a good idea or two for something.  This site is basically a werewolf tribute site.  Also, I know that a lot of people besides you and I must think that werewolves "got shafted" somehow, you can't put your finger on it, it's not just one thing, it's the whole thing in general.  To me werewolves are what I read in nonfiction books, but before I read the nonfiction books, werewolves to me were "The Wolf Man" and "The Howling" movies, so I always have those in the back of my mind too.  I do want to talk to you at that convention in March about your upcoming "monsters" related comic book, maybe I can put in my "two cents" would be cool.  You are definitely a very talented artist.

Last edited by The Busboy (2004-12-01 17:57:54)

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#39 2004-12-01 18:23:36

Speedbump
Member
From: Louisiana
Registered: 2004-09-21
Posts: 1140

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

The whole werewolf archetype is so fascinating because it can be construed as a giant metaphor for the duality of human nature. Human beings are constantly fighting inner battles over a variety of different emotions and thoughts, sometimes to the point of acting like two distinct personalities. It's borderline schizophrenia, symbollically depicted as monster and man.

To me, this embattled psychological meltdown is what separates the werewolf from the other movie monsters and creates a more believable scenario.

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#40 2004-12-01 18:40:31

The Busboy
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From: USA
Registered: 2004-06-08
Posts: 18041

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

Speedy, some great posts you have tonight!  You definitely think along the same lines as me on a lot of the more psycological issues.  Great posts!

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#41 2004-12-01 18:43:19

WolfVanZandt
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From: Broomfield, Colorado
Registered: 2004-09-01
Posts: 4711
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Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

Uh, not "schizophrenia", "multiple persoality disorder". They're not the same thing.

Sorry, being a psychologist, it's a pet peave.

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#42 2004-12-01 18:47:32

The Busboy
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From: USA
Registered: 2004-06-08
Posts: 18041

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

WVZ, I know what you mean, because when it comes to psychology, I always want to have a current textbook with me to make sure I use the right words.  You need to know so much about the symptoms to know what kind of "disorder" you are dealing with, as there are so many types of disorders.

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#43 2004-12-01 18:59:20

Speedbump
Member
From: Louisiana
Registered: 2004-09-21
Posts: 1140

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

WolfVanZandt wrote:

Uh, not "schizophrenia", "multiple persoality disorder". They're not the same thing.

Sorry, being a psychologist, it's a pet peave.

Whoops! My bad on that.

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#44 2004-12-01 19:04:56

WolfVanZandt
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From: Broomfield, Colorado
Registered: 2004-09-01
Posts: 4711
Website

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

Not that bad....I've heard seasoned psychologists do it. (I cringe when they do it too.)

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#45 2004-12-01 19:14:37

Speedbump
Member
From: Louisiana
Registered: 2004-09-21
Posts: 1140

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

WVZ, have you ever seen Identity (a great psychological thriller)?

If so, does the main character suffer from multiple personality disorder or schizophrenia?
If not, go rent it immediately. You won't be disappointed.

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#46 2004-12-01 23:33:00

WolfVanZandt
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From: Broomfield, Colorado
Registered: 2004-09-01
Posts: 4711
Website

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

I haven't seen it but I'll be at home this weekend which means I'll probably rent some movies. I'll see if I can get this one.

The difference is that people with multiple personality disorder split into different persons; a person with schizophrenia splits from reality. I guess that's where the confusion comes from. "Schizophrenia" means "split mind" but the mind isn't what splits; the person splits away from reality and lives in a fantasy world. The man on A Beautiful Mind had schizophrenia. That, BTW, was also an excellant movie and was a biographical movie about one of the greatest economists and mathematical minds that has ever existed. I have fashioned some of my therapy strategies on his case. Since traditional psychotherapy doesn't generally work very well for Weres, I've looked around for some innovations and this one often works well. (Works well for Homids, too, sometime.)

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#47 2004-12-01 23:34:42

WolfVanZandt
Member
From: Broomfield, Colorado
Registered: 2004-09-01
Posts: 4711
Website

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

BTW, the guy that Johnny Dep plays in Secret Window has a multiple Personality problem.

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#48 2004-12-02 01:02:22

Joey Liverwurst
Member
Registered: 2004-10-22
Posts: 128

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

WolfVanZandt wrote:

Joey, that was Watcher, wasn't it?

"Yes, Virginia, there really are monsters" was its title, actually.  Not so much good versus evil as dog eat dog.

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#49 2004-12-02 10:28:58

Chris Prunckle
Member
From: Chicago
Registered: 2004-11-15
Posts: 172
Website

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

Wolf:
Wouldn't werewolves be seen as man versus his id?

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#50 2004-12-02 19:05:14

WolfVanZandt
Member
From: Broomfield, Colorado
Registered: 2004-09-01
Posts: 4711
Website

Re: Why have werewolves been given the shaft?

Joey, ooooh, I haven't seen that one. I'll have to look it up when I get the chance.

Nnng. I guess you could conceptualize fictional Werewolves that way. But the human id isn't particularly evil in Freudian terms. It doesn't necessarily go out to destroy everything in it's path. There's a difference between what most people think animal nature is like and what it's really like. Nonhuman animals aren't "all id". They also have ego and superego - maybe not the same way that humans do but, in their own manner. The human id is more like a human child with the physical equipment of an adult. Ego and superego are things that develope with maturity (although the mental equipment is supposedly there at birth - it just needs programming).

I would think that the Dr. Jekyl - Mr. Hyde plot would be more approprite for dealing with man battling the evil within or, even, the id.

But do realize that I'm not really "against" the movie version of Werewolves as long as there are other movies to balance out the concept. I guess my main objection (or, more like, irritation) is how movies condition people to react when they meet RL Werewolves. Vampires have the same problems but not quite as badly since they are (personality-wise) a lot more like their on-screen counterparts than we are like movie Werewolves. Being an advocate for the Therian Community, I spend a lot more time dispelling myths than I'd like. I would rather be providing positive reasons why the world needs us; that would be much more constructive.

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