I know several of you have tried to shift to your full animal form but have failed I myself have only made a 50% shift through forcing the shift but because it was forced I got incredibly bad results when I reverted back and refuse to force it again. I know several of you don't think magic will work in this situation but its the basis of my whole research on p-shifting and any and all information on your experiences would greatly help me in finding the secret to getting this ability back and then teaching others who want to learn to shift in turn. Again I say I will be using magic and not white or any other magic I'm talking the black arts Ancient magic things that are extremely dangerous to those who've never used them before also is you also happen to be a Sorcerer your help would be even greater to my research.
To all you who help me out thank you
Crimson
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Ah . . . you do realize that isn't possible? That ancient magic was mostly powerful hallucinogens.
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Viergacht how long have you if you ever used magic?
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From what I understand of the nature based religions that practice "magic" the concept is more of the power of will than anything actually manifesting physically. You can't change yourself into a werewolf, however, you could potentially bring happiness. It seems that it falls along the same lines as prayer. If you believe in it then it does have some power. I do however find that within the constraints of "magic" that it conceptually does not have the power to mutate the genetic information, DNA, to induce a physical change as it were.
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You realize there is a difference from understanding something and actually trying it out and get results which I have in the past gotten results from the spells that I have cast and what I am trying is no different
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Well I do agree experimentation is an excellent way to locate how to use something. I am mostly basing my information off of some well established members of Wicca. I'm afraid from what I understand and their explanations of their beliefs and practices that, that form of magic does not actually exist. It is not impossible to get results, however, to genetically alter ones self is a stretch as physics do not allow such mutations on such a large scale. A theory I have is that you could have induced a mental shift upon which your outlook believed yourself to be changed but in the reality you were the same, as it were.
BTW I'm not sure if I have had an opportunity to welcome you to the Cafe'. So Welcome to the Cafe'! I hope you enjoy your time here, and I have quite enjoyed this debate thus far.
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Crimson, I've known, personally, people who have earnestly claimed to shift and they all tend to hallucinate - either naturally via schizophrenia, or unnaturally through drugs. That's why no one else can ever be brought up that can verify that they have actually changed. Given the pseudoshift which is a very real, physical phenomenon which can easily be mistaken for a p-shift, I don't doubt that some people have thought that they had undergone a physical transformation.
But if you claim a physical shift, your going to have to dredge up someone else that has clearly seen you shift before you're going to be able to convince anyone else (except an incredibly gullible person) that you've "cracked the code".
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Crimsonwolf wrote:
I myself have only made a 50% shift through forcing the shift but because it was forced I got incredibly bad results when I reverted back and refuse to force it again.I know several of you don't think magic will work in this situation but its the basis of my whole research on p-shifting and any and all information on your experiences would greatly help me in finding the secret to getting this ability back and then teaching others who want to learn to shift in turn. Again I say I will be using magic and not white or any other magic I'm talking the black arts Ancient magic things that are extremely dangerous to those who've never used them before also is you also happen to be a Sorcerer your help would be even greater to my research.
Crimson
Excuse me, the role playing forum is that way. I think Vindicator is sometimes way too kind and understanding when it comes to posts like these... why not just drop the hammer every once in awhile?
All of your references to "the black arts" and "dangerous" "Ancient magic" made me chuckle a little bit. These are buzz words from the occult section at Hot Topic. Its kids stuff, RPG stuff, and its total fiction. Any serious practitioner of either magick or folk magic as understood from a theosophical perspective would chuckle too. I would really hope that no one is gullible enough to think you achieved a physical shift.
Last edited by Berserker (2009-08-20 12:15:31)
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Video, or it didn't happen. XD
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Viergacht wrote:
Video, or it didn't happen. XD
Pretty much!
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Black Magic is not supposed to be used anymore. If you go by my belief, the Gods banned black magic because it is dangerous and almost always involves harming someone (which goes against almost every magic/pagan based belief I know of.) Also, there's a reason we cannot shift on this plain anymore. It's too dangerous. Too many people were getting hurt.
It is a part of the long distant past and that is the way it should stay. There's a reason the magic was used in ancient times and has not been used since.
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WolfMontana wrote:
Viergacht wrote:
Video, or it didn't happen. XD
Pretty much!
+2
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Black Shuck wrote:
WolfMontana wrote:
Viergacht wrote:
Video, or it didn't happen. XD
Pretty much!
+2
+3
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Illeana, evidence. Surely if anything so earth shaking ever happened in the past, there would be some evidence.
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That's why I specified that it's in my belief system. My religion for lack of better term. For me, the old legends of the ancients is enough for me. After all, how much evidence of much of anything do we have from the ancient times? No one really knows anything for sure other than they lived because there was nothing written (well, some cultures there were, but others were not, yet they still were.) But those legends are exactly that, ancient. I have my belief and you have yours (or a lack of one. I don't know.) Crimson obviously believes in magic, and it is a general knowledge among magic believes that black magic is not good. Just believing in something gives it power, even if the power is only psychological, and therefore the believer needs to be warned about the affects that such things could have. Belief is a powerful thing. Even if the belief seems silly or improbable.
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But the old legends are just that. If you look at them, they come from works of fiction. It doesn't make sense for instance to base personal beliefs on the story from Trimalcho's Feast from the Satyricon when the work was intended from the very first to be fiction. It doesn't make sense to base personal beliefs on second hand tellings of sensationalistic happenings recorded several hundred years ago.
Frankly, I accept the existence of magic. But you keep talking about old legends of the ancients. Give me one. It needs to be one based in fact. And if you're going to relate ancient beliefs to what Therians are doing today it needs to have some distant chance of actually relating to Therians at all. Advice needs to be evidence or experience based, otherwise your telling people things when you simply don't know what you're talking about.
My people gets plenty of advice off the Internet and a large part of it has nothing to do with experience or anything that can be shown to have any real basis. It's often dangerous to proceed with nonfactual information.
I will agree, though, that black magic is a bad idea. It's usually based on petitioning help from entities that are, at best capricious and usually much worse.
Spell magic doesn't work on Therians and doesn't seem to work very well with Therians (mainly because they're normally based on mind games - something that Therians have a very weak relationship with.
Unknown sciences - well, okay, but it's not a good idea working with something when you don't know what's actually going on and doing so on the basis that you do know what's going on.
"Pharmaceutical magic" is another term for poisoning yourself silly.
Shamanism, I can go along with but that's so far distant from other things that's called magic as to be sorta ridiculous to even call it magic.
Frankly, I'd like my beliefs to be on the less silly and improbable realm. Maybe that's just me.......
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That's just it. It is just you. Your belief. I know there are some who share what you believe, but not all do.
Not all old legends are just works of fiction. That's what most today view them as, but the people who still study those faiths, even if it is just passed down by word of mouth, still follow them. For instance, my beliefs stem from a clash of my two heritages. My mother is from Scotland and my father was a mix of Mohegan and Irish. My belief is a mix of the Mohegans (or the Wolf People) and the Celts. It seems strange, but it isn't uncommon for 'pagans' now a days to mix their beliefs, especially int he states since hardly anyone is of one culture here anymore.
My point is that belief in something gives it power, no matter how silly it may seem to you or me. The stories that we know as myth and legend now were truth to the ancient cultures. The Egyptians, Sumarians, Greeks, Romans, Celts, Norse, and Native Americans. All of them have myths and legends. Their people followed them to be truth, and the people who follow those pantheons and beliefs today still believe them to be truth. Whether you or I believe them and follow them is our own choices, but we need to respect the beliefs of other people. And, as I said before, if it is believed then it has power, at least to the believer.
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No old legend is a work of fiction - they all contain germs of truth, even the fiction. But fiction isn't faith. Things that are written for fiction were never intended to generate religions. And faiths that once existed are not necessarily valid any longer.
For instance, there are people today in America that worship Zeus as the direct and proximal cause of thunderstorms. Thunderstorms are no longer a mystery as they were a millenia before Christ. There's no need to wonder what causes thunderstorms or to ascribe them to higher powers. All you have to do is pick up any meteorology text. Now, as to any control that might be exerted on thunderstorms from outside - that's still a toss up.
"My point is that belief in something gives it power, no matter how silly it may seem to you or me."
If the belief isn't based on facts - if it is indeed silly - then it leads to inaccurate predictions. We need to be able to predict the outcome of our behaviors and you can't do that by being silly. And then there's the oft asked question, "How do we (as Therians) present ourselves to the World" and I guarantee the most effective way is not going to be in being silly.
And we can respect other people without respecting their beliefs if their beliefs lead to irresponsible and often self and other destructive behaviors. We do not have to respect silliness and, indeed, most of the world does not.
Silliness, when believed in, only has deceptive power. If you believe up can walk of the edge of a 30 story building and just hang there, that belief has power to get you killed - real power, yes, but not power to do what you intend.
Oh, wait, did I say that I'm pretty solidly against New Age beliefs in the Therian community? I'm willing to debate though - that's how people with conflicting beliefs respect each other - not simply be ignoring the conflict. Go ahead, how is your position rational? Your move.
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I know understand were both of you are coming from and I actually enjoy a good debate and I will say to Illeana I am quite aware of the risks of using black magic and I'm also aware of the fact that the gods as we call them banned. I myself am trying to show others that black magic isn't actually bad all in itself I will say that yes its quite dangerous to the user and that you have to have both the will and fortitude to fight off the demons and other creatures that try to possess you while using this kind of magic but from the amount of time that I've been using black magic I've learned that it in itself is just dark magic the word black is in itself just the color of the way the magic is viewed. If the rest of the pagan and magic community would see that maybe the name could be changed cause I believe that black magic itself is actually the power to control various forms of darkness but dark magic revolves around the fact that you use spirits, demons and other destructive forms of magic to harm, maim and hurt others but like I've said before I've been using black magic before I realized I was a therian and I have and still continue to fight off the demonic spirits that try to posses me. I won't say its easy but I've learned to control a few of them and if you really think about it black magic is more or less a way of attacking and defending ones self from another magic user cause to the best of my ability the only other magic that I know of that causes desturction to other but isn't viewed like black magic is red magic so if you can find any reason other than what I've just stated to presuade me to stop using what I've learned in black magic I will take it into consideration also if your going to comment on black magic please at the very least tell how much you know about it and if you know little I think it would be best that you not speak like you know what you are talking about cause I know from personal experience that we black magic users hate it when other users of magic try to talk about things they know nothing of, and like WVZ said your move Illeana
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The problem with having the will and the fortitude to fight off demons is that they're pretty amused at the fact that you think you're smarter and stronger than they are. That's self-conceit and sooner or later they're going to show you your error - after they get through manipulating you.
Most demons aren't interested in possessing anyone. That's a dangerous activity for demons because, as entertaining as it is, it puts them at jeopardy.
I've been both the student (though not the user) and the target of quite a considerable amount of magic (black and otherwise). I'm a shaman, I deal with it.
I'm not going to try to persuade you to stop using magic - I'm simply going to try to have others see it as a bad idea so they don't make the same mistakes. It's not common in the Therian community - they don't generally like wasting their time like that. I'd like that to continue.
I guess I could ask, "What have you ever done worth doing through black magic?"
Last edited by WolfVanZandt (2009-08-22 16:32:17)
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I know it sounds weird but I've used it to protect myself from other black magic users now I will say that even though I am a user I haven't had the need to use black magic in about a year or so and I've started to persue other forms of magic, in a way I guess you could say I'm trying to cleanse myself and become someone who uses magic for the good of everyone oppose to using it to harm others and since my teacher who like yourself is a shaman refuses to teach me to further advance my knowledge in shamanism until I completely rid myself of all traces of black magical items
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I've been attacked by some pretty advanced black artists (and I know some Therians who have also been attacked) and it seems not to affect Therians. In fact, the results are usually pretty frustrating to the magic user and entertaining to the Therian. If you're a Therian, I doubt if you need to use fire to fight fire in this case.
It's a pretty rare shaman who can both practice and teach and maybe your teacher realizes that. Also, if you're a Therian, your case is completely different and maybe he also realizes that.
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First, Crimson, I see your point in how it can be used to aid in protecting yourself. I just felt the need to say that it is still dangerous, just in case you, or anyone else who tried to use it, did not know the risks. Clearly you know the risks and that is different, and now anyone who comes along also knows that it is dangerous, even if it is not necessarily bad.
WVZ, I'm not saying that it is logical to believe that way, just that people still do. I'm going to go with your Zeus reference (mostly because it's been thunder storming here all day.) I know of a few people who follow pantheons like that (my mate is one of them) and a lot of people now a days have adapted their beliefs to fit modern sciences. For instance someone who believes Zeus is the cause of thunder now a days might say that it was him who put thunder into being, or that he created it and the process with which it goes through now. Afterall, beliefs have changed countless times over the years to accommodate new discoveries or things happening in the world.
I will admit that in magic, I do not know a lot, as I've only been learning for roughly a year, and a lot has had to be through self discovery and my own research due to a very bad mentor. But I do know basics. And I've studied the ins and out of several different faiths ranging from Christianity to Paganism. I've noticed that all of them have beliefs that, no matter how different, all seem to come down to the same thing in the end, but all have been warped over time to work with modern times.
I'm sure that I still have a lot to learn as I am still quite young, but I'm willing to learn. I find debates like this to be a good way to learn too. I'm not here trying to change anyone's belief, just to give my input. You do not learn by keeping your mouth shut and your head down.
Your turn.
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Well put Illeana and I must say from the way you were talking about magic in the previous post it sounded as if you had been using magic as long as I have and I must say both your aura and magic abilities impress me and I must apologize for that comment I just made I tend to travel to meet people I meet online that claim they can use magic to by both the astral plane and other such methods that I can't inform you about until you've reached a higher understanding of magic but I will say that from what I saw I was truly impressed and I must also say I do agree with what you have just said in your last post
And now it is your turn WVZ
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I have no problem with what Illeana posted.
Except that all religions do not boil down to the same. For instance, Buddhism is basically a moral religion - how do people live "the good life". It's the same question Aristotle asked in his Nicomachean Ethics. On the other hand, Christianity is not a moral religion. There is a such a thing as Christian ethics but they're not central to the religion. Christianity is a salvation religion - "How do I survive this life?". And there's enough to learn from all religions. Buddhism goes into great depth on how to avoid the snare of materialism. It's easy enough to miss that in Christianity (although it's there) as witness the modern American Christian church which is about as materialistic as you can get.
And I would ask "Why would anyone believe in Zeus?" Most people I ask begin to explain that everything isn't done by reason - that some things are done by faith. My answer is that neither faith nor reason can function correctly without each other. Reality has never respected the "feel good solution". Believing something simply because you want to or because it feels right boils down to boils down precisely to neurons firing in certain places in certain sequences and hormones flowing in certain proportions. They don't necessarily reflect reality.
The only reason we feel license to believe whatever we want just because it feels right is that technology has removed our sense of impending doom. We believe whatever we want simply because we think we can get away with it - we think our lives don't depend on it.
We're wrong, but the illusion is convincing.
A strong connection with nature quickly dispells that myth.
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